Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 121 - Finding Her Voice in a VBAC

Seanna had a traumatic first birth in 2020. It was an emergency cesarean in 2020 in which she felt completely unempowered. In her 2nd pregnancy, she makes many different decisions in hopes to have a radically different, more empowering birth. She goes to therapy to process and heal from the birth trauma with the help of EMDR. Seanna takes birth class and learns how to advocate for herself and her baby, hires doulas, chooses a truly VBAC-supportive OB at a different hospital, and seeks bodywork from a chiropractor and acupuncturist. This story will hopefully be of encouragement to anyone who’s had a traumatic first birth that a second birth can be healing – but often not without some thoughtful, strategic choices. And for listeners expecting their first baby, this story will drive home how valuable your birth setting, support team, and education can be to protect your experience and your baby’s birth to be as healthy and safe as it can be.

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Episode Topics:

  • 1st pregnancy was in 2020

  • 38 weeks hospital tells her she “has to” be induced at 41 weeks

  • Couldn’t move around, couldn’t drink water

  • Labor didn’t progress fast enough for the hospital’s expectations

  • 22 hours finally got to 5 cm, she got pitocin

  • Baby’s heart rate started to drop

  • Unconsented rupture of membranes

  • She felt like she wasn’t heard or involved in anything

  • She was told the cesarean was an emergency and there was no option, but then she waited for the doctor to be available for two hours

  • She realized later she had experienced birth trauma, a form of PTSD

  • In the immediate postpartum, though, she knew something was “off” but couldn’t put a name to it. A Lactation consultant put words to it of “birth trauma”

  • She sought out EMDR therapy with Helping Hands, which was really helpful

  • 2nd pregnancy, focused less on baby gear and more on helping it be a positive experience

  • Attended a virtual VBAC class offered by a midwife

  • Joined a VBAC Facebook group based on her chiropractor’s recommendation - Long Island VBAC and birth trauma support group

  • Switched providers to someone at NUMC

  • Deciding to hire a doula, hired Bori & Jaye from East River Doula Collective

  • Birth class really helped her and was validating to trust herself more

  • Baby stayed breech, so she did some Spinning Babies techniques to help baby flip, including going to a Webster certified chiropractor at 33 weeks to 40 weeks

  • At 39-40 weeks, induction was looking likely

  • Went to acupuncture

  • Dr. Granoff encouraged induction

  • NUMC hospital had lots of nice tools like a birth ball, peanut ball

  • Advocated for wireless monitoring

  • Foley balloon started at midnight

  • Had the hep lock / port

  • Had to have antibiotics for GBS

  • Started pitocin at around 1-2 cm

  • Lots of waiting, progress was slow

  • Strongly advocating for wireless monitoring

  • Doulas supported remotely for beginning part of labor

  • Did a video call with doula Jaye in the morning

  • Had a playlist with music, using ball, trying different labor positions

  • Reading, watching tv in early labor

  • Around 4-5pm (around 16-17 hrs into the induction) they have a discussion about labor not progressing as quickly as they’d like but in a respectful way in which Seanna felt like she had a voice and had options

  • They decide to rupture the membranes

  • Sensations get much stronger; she gets epidural around 5cm

  • The epidural administration was the hardest part of the whole process - took a bunch of tries and 1.5 hrs

  • Bori arrives and sets up the room with dim lighting, essential oils, etc.

  • Seanna got some sleep

  • 2am doc checks and she’s 8cm, using peanut ball

  • Topped off epidural

  • Feeling intense pain in hip

  • Bori goes to get the doctor who comes and does an exam and she’s ready to push

  • She labors down and doc doesn’t encourage her to push until baby is very low

  • She’s so excited to get the opportunity to push

  • Pushed for only 9 minutes

  • Son comes to her chest, she feels so proud of herself and her baby

  • Breastfeeding journey

  • With 1st, used formula early on. Was a very large baby

  • Saw 2 lactation consultants with her first in the hospital. One very helpful, the other one not

  • Breastfeeding was very painful first time – eventually determined he had a tongue tie

  • 3 LCs and 2 pediatricians looked at him and said he didn’t have a tongue tie, which was wrong

  • Nesting Place had a free virtual breastfeeding support group she attended, ended up hiring the LC who assessed and said her son probably does have an tongue tie

  • Goes to have a frenectomy with Dr. Scott Siegel

  • Had low milk supply and worked with 

  • Low Milk Supply foundation - on LI

  • Blood work you can have done to determine if there are underlying issues

  • IGT (insufficient glandular tissue) is what ultimately Seanna was diagnosed with

  • She combo-fed her first for a year

  • With 2nd, knew ahead of time and got the tongue tie corrected and knew she wouldn’t be able to provide 100% of baby’s nourishment

Interview Transcript

Lisa: Hi Seanna. It's so good to see you again.

Seanna: Hi, it's good to see you too.

Lisa: Would you just take a few moments to introduce yourself to the listeners?

Seanna: Sure. My name is Seanna. I live out in Nassau County on Long Island. Former birth class attendee of Birth Matters. And, should I go into the kids?

Lisa: Yeah. So how old are your kids? You have two, right?

Seanna: Yes. I have two children. My oldest is three years old and my youngest is eight months old. They're both boys.

Lisa: And you had one born during the pandemic, right? In 2020?

Seanna: Yes. Yes, I became a parent in the pandemic for the 1st time. 

Lisa: Tough time to give birth.

Seanna: Very, yes, very difficult time to give birth. I feel like if other people have gone through it, they know, but it was definitely not your traditional 1st pregnancy, 1st birth experience, any of that due to the pandemic.

Lisa: . Yeah. And so Seanna is one of the rare people who came to my birth class in her second time around. Because you weren't able to take a birth class with your first and you'll share kind of the broad strokes of the first one, but mostly here today, Seanna is going to share her VBAC story, her vaginal birth after cesarean story, her second baby's birth story.

So I thank you so much for being willing. I know that you've had quite the journey across your two experiences being pregnant and giving birth. And so I just am all the more grateful that you've been willing. And I know it's been a while since your second one was born. I think I had you in class almost a year ago. 

Seanna: Yeah, it was just about a year ago when I first met you. We were in class. So yeah, lot's changed in a year, but a lot of good things.

Lisa: Yeah. And I haven't, this is going to be fun for me to hear more of the details, cause I just heard sort of the broad strokes of like overall, it was a successful VBAC and you felt, I think better supported, you'll share with us what the truths and nuances are, but, I immediately invited you to join the podcast or share for the podcast. But I always say no rush, cause I know when you're in the throes of new parenthood, especially parenting two now that it's a lot. And so,I'm so thankful that you circled back when the time felt right, when it felt aligned for you.

Seanna: Yes, thank you so much. And thank you for having me a little bit later, beyond, but I feel like now I'm in a good spot where I've been able to process it all and I can share it and just, not be lost in the day to day of with a newborn, at home.

Lisa: Yeah. Yours isn't late. I'm actually still talking with a client of mine who still wants to share her story. And it was, I think going on around eight years ago, I just saw her 7 or 8 year old daughter at our farm co-op the other day and it was on Halloween. So she was all decked out in her Halloween costume.

I was like, I can't wait to hear her birth story someday. We've been trying to schedule it for literally 3 years.

Seanna: Wow. Okay. that makes me feel a lot better about

Lisa: You're very early.

Seanna: I'm great. That's good.

Lisa: Great. So would you like to just share sort of the broad strokes of your first time? I know it was not a pleasant experience. I think you called it traumatic, and I'm so sorry for that, that you had to go through that, particularly in the timing that was happening, that was already a traumatic time, with the pandemic and all. But, if you'd like to, just whatever you'd like to share about that journey and how that played into your choices in your second pregnancy.

Seanna: Sure. Yeah. So with my first, we found out we were pregnant on Christmas Day of 2019, which was very exciting. And, we just were excited to be parents for the first time, there was all this excitement. And then the pandemic hit and it just got scary. There was definitely like a lot of, you have to protect the baby, you have to be careful.

So we really isolated ourselves quite significantly because we were pregnant. We had heard especially that women that were pregnant that had gotten COVID were hit harder and everything and we really wanted to do everything we could to have a successful birth experience. So with that, I went into it just being very much, trying to do everything I could, trying to follow any advice that the doctors would give me, because I wanted to make sure that I was doing what they would say, keeping the baby safe, doing what I needed to do. So that pregnancy went well, and as we got towards the end of the pregnancy, baby was sizing a little bit big.

And you start seeing them weekly around 36 weeks. And at the 38th week appointment, they made me schedule an induction, and I remember at the time being very upset by this because I was thinking like, well, I want to go into labor naturally, and I didn't know that there was like a hard stop in a lot of doctors offices as to, this is when you are not allowed to be pregnant anymore, you have to have the baby. And I was told at 38 weeks, we don't let anyone go beyond 41 weeks. You're not allowed to go beyond 41 weeks. And it wasn't even like, you have a choice. Would you like to go? I was thinking, I had read up so much about what happens to your body when you're pregnant.

I hadn't read up anything of, what happens if the baby doesn't come by their due date? I didn't, that's not in What to Expect When You're Expecting. , So anyway, it really didn't sit right with me, but I remember, agonizing over this and being like, I have to schedule this induction of going into the hospital and I remember it was a fight even to get them to let me go to 41 weeks. That they wanted to schedule it sooner.

Lisa: So can you just clarify, you said they're telling you this at 38 weeks, but they were scheduling it for when, 39?

Seanna: 41 weeks.

Lisa: Oh, for 41. Okay.

Seanna: Yes, so I had to like fight, they wanted me to schedule it after 40 weeks, like right around the 40 week mark and I wanted to go as long as possible. So I pushed it. I think I was able to push it to 41 plus 2 or something like that. Just a little bit later if I could. but it was kind of like you weren't given the choice. It was just like this is what you have to do. This is how it happens. And so I was like, okay, I really didn't feel good about it, but I did it because I was like, this is what the doctor is saying. I should do it. So time rolled around. I did not go into labor naturally, and I had to get induced.

And when we went into the hospital, I just remember, my son was born in September, which is the busiest birth month, I believe my statistics,

Lisa: That's what I've read, too.

Seanna: Yeah, So it was really busy and I remember going in and, just like sitting and waiting in the waiting room for hours as women that were actually in labor got to go ahead of me and get into triage and all that stuff.

And, we finally got in and then they didn't have beds. So we were in triage for 8 hours and they started the induction. But there were just a lot of things that I was told had to happen. Like, when I went in, they immediately hooked me up to an IV, they immediately started giving me fluids, and, just things that now after having taken your class, I now know, this is optional, and there's, evidence based reasoning that I didn't have to do that, but I didn't know it at the time.

And I was hooked up to an IV so I couldn't move and it was COVID and I wasn't allowed to move. And they shared that I couldn't drink water. At all. Like I was only allowed ice chips, which I don't like, I hate ice chips. And all I wanted was water. I just wanted water.

And I remember like waiting for the ice to melt and like chugging a little bit of water that was there because that's what I wanted. And so all that stuff happened and basically with that labor, I didn't progress fast enough for them. My water partially broke a few hours in and then, it took me a while, I finally got to 5 centimeters dilation at around 22 hours or so. And they started to give me Pitocin and the baby's heart rate started straight drop, and they basically, at that point, they came in and had to explain, baby's not responding well to Pitocin, you are not progressing, laboring fast enough, baby's heart rate is dropping when we try Pitocin, so you have to have a C section.

And again, it wasn't like, here are the options, it was just like, this is what needs to happen because of X, Y, and Z. And I was definitely pretty upset with that, for sure. Also prior to that, when baby's heart rate was dropping, they ruptured my water the rest of the way, but they didn't ask for permission.

And I didn't, again, didn't know until after your class that they have to ask for permission. So there was a lot of stuff done to me, I felt, as opposed to me being a part of the birthing experience. It was just like, I am the person that's holding the baby, but I didn't really feel treated as a part of the team and the mom that was giving birth.

 Yeah, so that happened and then,I did have to have the emergency C section and medically, everything like, went fine. Medically, my C section went fine, but 

 yeah, so they ruptured my water without my permission. And I asked my husband after the fact, and he doesn't remember them asking either. In fact, that was one of the more upsetting moments because we were like, the lights were off, I had an epidural at that point and it was quiet and all of a sudden, 6 or 7 people walk into the room and they're extremely quiet. They're just like, all right, we need to check you right now. And I remember, like, I can't say anything because, clearly something's wrong and I don't know what it is. And that's when they were like, the baby's heart rate was dropping, but they didn't explain to me what they were doing or why they were doing it.

It just seemed like there was a lot of urgency. So then they said I had to get the C section and then, they told me it was an emergency like I had to have it, that it wasn't an option, basically not an option, and then they left for almost 2 hours. And it was really strange.

And it was because the doctor had to give birth to another baby before I would have my C section. And my brain was like, very confused because if this was an emergency, why are we now waiting

an hour and a half, 2 hours to do it. So anyway, there was a lot going on. 

On the plus side afterwards, like my son was healthy. And I was healthy. I didn't have any complications from the c section, which was wonderful. But due to the experience, it was just a lot. It was not like you go in expecting, oh, here is a vaginal birth that I'm going to have. And then it's like, by the way, you're having major surgery and they're cutting through multiple layers and muscles and you won't even be able to sit up by yourself.

And our medical system doesn't do a very good job at explaining what post c section is going to be. And in fact, I remember afterwards they were like, just rest and relax and don't lift anything more than 10 pounds and my son was almost 10 pounds.

And I was like, what? I have to lift the baby. I have to breastfeed the baby. So it's just very interesting. And they didn't really, you have your standard, your 2 week checkup and your 6 week checkup and that's it. I had a friend that had knee replacement surgery, and she got more doctor care and PT for a surgery that's much more minor than a c section, and she didn't even have a baby to deal with, so just all of that and, all of the events that happened, definitely hit me very hard.

And unfortunately, as you mentioned before, earlier, it did lead to birth trauma. And in fact, I had PTSD from the experience, and I did not know what that was. I didn't even know birth trauma was a thing. I was like, oh, a lot of people say, their birth is traumatic, but I didn't know that birth trauma is like a perinatal mood disorder that is something that can happen based off of your body's response.

And my initial reaction was that we're fine. Nothing happened. No one almost died. It went well. So I should be fine. And that's what I kept telling myself. And, I don't think I was willing to admit that I wasn't okay for a while. And this, I just feel is important to share, because I thought in order for something to be traumatic, it had to be like a near death experience.

And while my birth wasn't a near death experience. It was traumatic to me and I've learned since that trauma is not like what happens to you. It's how your body and your mind physically responds to the events. It's how you process it. So I think that's really important to share because since this experience, I've spoken with so many women who have had emergency C sections or unplanned C section and they all have the same feelings that I've had in regards to this. And it's important to know it's very common, and yet, no one talks about it. 

So I, postpartum, like I knew something was up, but I also was just trying to figure out what life was like with a newborn and I couldn't like, walk or sit up or do really anything by myself. And because it was COVID, we felt very strongly about not having anyone come into our house. So it was just me and my husband completely by ourselves with this newborn.

And finally I knew something was up, but I was like, it's not postpartum depression. They keep asking you, you hear a lot about postpartum depression, but I knew I wasn't depressed. And one of the lactation consultants, actually, that I worked with, who was phenomenal, I had some breastfeeding issues as well, but she was amazing. She mentioned birth trauma. And she was the first person to mention that and open the door for that. And then I did get the chance. I finally was like, okay, I'm not okay. I need to go get help. Yeah, like I couldn't see anyone else pregnant even on TV.

I'd have to leave the room. I remember vividly, Friends came on and Rachel was pregnant in Friends, and I had to leave because she was pregnant and I couldn't handle seeing anyone that was pregnant. 

So luckily I found a wonderful therapist office that is out on Long Island that specializes in motherhood and especially perinatal mood disorders. They're called Helping Hands Psychotherapy.

And they do virtual therapy sessions. I still wasn't leaving my house, we were still very protective, and I was able to finally start seeing someone and to start getting help. And it was then that I realized, oh, not only did I have what was birth trauma, I had PTSD for a while based off of what had happened to me. Which startled me because I was like, I haven't been to war,that's all I knew what PTSD was. I'm like, oh, that's if you're in an active war zone. No. So I started seeing a therapist there. We started working, especially for birth trauma with a technique called EMDR, which is phenomenal.

 Studies have proven that it really helps rewire your brain so you can process through your trauma. And that was like a game changer for me. So that really helped me heal. It'll be 3 years next month, but 3 years later, I'm still going, but it is definitely, it has been so helpful and it helps me to process through what I went through, and heal from it. And I lost a lot of trust in the medical system and providers with what I had gone through, and going through therapy helped me make sense of what happened to me and really process through a lot of the negative self thoughts that I had. And I believe it's common for a lot of women that have had unplanned or emergency C sections where I felt that my body had failed me, I felt that I was, like, a bad mom because I couldn't do what my body as a mother had been built to do. There were all these very deep feelings of shame associated with it, and I helped work through that and realize, no, my body didn't fail me, but there were many things that just started this process of,what could have happened differently?

And that kind of led me on my journey to make sure that I did everything in my own power to have a successful VBAC. I didn't even know what a VBAC was. So yes, vaginal birth after cesarean, but like I didn't know what that was until after I'd gone through it. And, yeah, that made a big difference.

And I was able to start thinking ahead because I knew I wanted more than one child and that eventually the time would come and hopefully we'd be able to be successful with a vaginal birth. So yeah, I think that does that sum up the first birth, hopefully pretty well?

Lisa: Sure. Thank you so much. One question about EMDR. Would you be willing or able to, describe just briefly, what was the first session like, or what is that modality like? Because I just recently was recommending it to a client who experienced some birth trauma. And I was glad you mentioned that there's research to back it as an effective treatment for PTSD.

But for people who aren't familiar with that, would you be able to just say anything about that?

Seanna: Sure.

EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, and the big thing is the reprocessing. And it uses, like bilateral stimulation. So you can either cross your hands and tap both sides, or you can use it's just eye movement as well, where you follow someone's finger or something, if they're guiding you from side to side. But it's all about taking, and I'm not an expert on this, I'm just someone who's gone through it. I feel like I should know how to explain.

Lisa: No, absolutely. And maybe I'll have an EMDR therapist on the show sometime to take a deeper dive.

Seanna: Yes. It's really incredible. So your brain, when it has trauma, it is taking this event and it's physically in your body as a traumatic event, and anytime you would think back to the event, your body has a physical response that is very negative.

And basically EMDR takes that and works with you to talk through what that negativity is, but to then rewire your brain into having it not be a negative physical response. If that makes sense.

Lisa: So much sense. And I, yeah, I love it. I've heard so many first hand stories about how effective it can be. So thank you for sharing.

Seanna: And it definitely, like when I first started therapy, it's not like we were like, hi, nice to meet you, let's start this right away. We had to do some background information and I had to get to know the therapist a little bit for a session or 2 before we delved into it.

But, just, the change that it made in my own life, it works. And I know it seems silly. You're sitting there and you're like, this is silly. Like, how does this work? But it does. It absolutely works. And it made such a difference in how I can think of the birth of my 1st child now. Again, like I said, when it first happened, it was just such a sense of shame and like failure.

 And now it's not that. Like now I can think on it, and while those feelings might still be there, it's not like they're going to go away entirely, it's not debilitating for me. I can talk about it without completely shutting down. But also I can see I've been able to work through it, so my body knows that there are some good things that came out of it too. If that makes sense.

Lisa: Yeah. It totally does. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Well then do you want to go into your second journey?

Seanna: Sure. Yeah, for my 2nd, I worked really hard and we were very focused on having a successful VBAC. My 1st time around, I think I put a lot of effort, as many new parents do, like, do I have the right gear for baby? What do I need to do for baby?

And the 2nd time around, it was really a shift of focus because I wanted to make sure that my birth experience was a positive one, and that I did everything that I could in my power to make it a positive one, like to not have trauma again. One of the first things I did when I was about 6 months postpartum, was I attended a virtual VBAC class.

It was just like a one shot deal where it was like, here's what VBAC is, if you've had a cesarean, here's what it stands for, here's what you need to keep an eye out for, here's how to be successful. The basics of being successful moving forward. That just introduced me to the concept and to know, okay, there are people that do support this. It was given by a midwife at a midwife practice virtually, which was wonderful. And it was very informative, which was good. And then I also joined a Facebook group for women for VBACs and birth trauma, which was also extremely helpful for me. As I mentioned, I'm from Long Island, so the Facebook group, if anyone is from Long Island, because my chiropractor, who I will also mention because she's Webster certified, but she was the one who was like, oh, by the way, there's this Facebook group, it's the Long Island VBAC and Birth Trauma Support group.

And that was really helpful. I joined it pretty early on just to see what other women that were already at the point where they were pregnant with their 2nd, to see what that was like, and just to get my mind open to the concept and just make sure I'm taking in what I need to take in. 

And then I also switched providers. I was not happy with what happened with my 1st and I did not want to go back. I think I went back into the office once after my 6 week checkup, but after that, I was not planning on going back. So it was really helpful, actually, because the Facebook group that I was in, many women have asked, who is really VBAC supportive? And they had a list of doctors out on Long Island that are known for specifically being VBAC friendly. So I was able to go through the information on that group.

And I found a doctor who's out on Long Island who is specifically known for his VBAC successes. His name is Dr. Martin Granoff, and I definitely recommend him. There are like 2 names that keep popping up on that group and his is very steadily one of the ones that you keep seeing, so we were happy to go with him. 

I also found out on the group that apparently a lot of providers will say that they're VBAC supportive, like someone starts off earlier on their pregnancy and they say, I want a VBAC and the doctors would be like, sure. And then like 36, 32 weeks hit. And then they're kind of like, Oh, we don't really want to do this.

And it really seems I don't know if they're worried about the potential liabilities that might result with a VBAC. I don't know. But the interesting fact is like one of the biggest things that's cited is Oh, you have an increased chance of uterine rupture if you have a VBAC. But the one class I took with the midwife, it was like, 1 percent or like less than a percent was the increase.

And yet, to have a C section, the risks are so much greater than the 1 percent chance of, or whatever that risk

Lisa: is. But it was almost like fear based. It seems like many providers surrounding, or at least from what I've heard from this group, not from me particularly, but it seems like it's very fear based, oh, you don't want to do this because it could lead to some negative consequences.

Seanna: Yeah, so I learned that, and had I not been a part of that group, I wouldn't have even known that was a thing. So it helped to be around other people that had gone through successful VBACs and get in the right mindset for it. I also mentioned earlier that I really lost trust in the medical system and providers, but I also, after that experience in doing this research for the VBAC, I found out all these things that I was told had to happen, didn't have to happen. And that's why your class was so wonderful, because we decided we wanted to do a birth class, because with the pandemic, we didn't get a chance, and I foolishly thought, oh, when you go to the hospital and you're in labor, the nurses like help you through all the stages of labor and that's what a birth is. Because you see what you see on TV, which is like nothing.

And I didn't know until I was in it that like, actually it's you and whoever's your significant support other, like in a room by yourself, dealing with yourselves for the majority of the time and like people pop in to check your vitals, but no one's helping you through contractions. No one's saying try this labor position or that labor position.

And I was like, Oh. I was very unprepared for that scenario.

Lisa: That surprised me too. When I was pregnant and learned about the role of a doula and learned in birth class, like that, no, nurses, they don't really have bandwidth to be like a doula to you. I mean, it can happen, but it's like a unicorn a bit, at least in New York City area hospitals that are crowded and they have a lot on their plates, a lot of responsibilities.

Yeah. Yeah, so that's important, thanks for pointing that out.

Seanna: Yeah, and that surprised me. And, I even remember thinking the first time around, I had heard of a doula before, and I was like, do we need a doula? And with it being the pandemic, around the time we would have had to start looking and booked a doula was when they weren't even allowing significant others in the delivery room.

It was just so overwhelming for us. We were just like, at least my husband is allowed to be there and we're okay. But this time around, I was like,no. We are not birth experts. I want someone there who can say, hey, try this. Try this. Try this. Because we don't know that.

So we hired a doula and we had a phenomenal doula team. It was Bori and Jaye.

Lisa: From our doula collective, yeah.

Seanna: Yes, yeah, they're a team and it was wonderful. We got to meet a little bit beforehand, virtually, two sessions, and then just having that support, even just in text, they were like, text us as we get close to the due date and whatnot, was just so helpful because it took the pressure off of me to feel like I had to be the expert when I wasn't. I And I wanted someone I could trust because unfortunately I didn't, even though I had switched providers, I was still a little skeptical of just being told things in a hospital setting or in a traditional doctor setting because of what had happened the first time around.

I really wanted someone who like, I don't know, aligned and I felt would be like our champion or like our cheerleader, like someone that I could look to and say, I know that I can advocate for myself better because I have this support. And it's not like me and my husband being like, we don't know what to do.

Lisa: And I just want to mention that right before we hopped on to this for this zoom. I messaged Bori and Jaye to let them know that we were recording your birth story. And so Bori sends her love. She says, can't wait to hear. Yay. Give her our love

Seanna: Yes. Oh my gosh. They were incredible. And I just, yeah, just having them there for the process was wonderful. And also for the induction, like what no one tells you with an induction is that so sorry, backtracking. so Bori and Jaye recommended that I take a birth class and they recommended your class and we were happy, even though I'm on Long Island, Astoria is not that far away. We used to live in Queens. So we were like, yeah, we got this. This is no problem. 

And it was just such an eye opener and so educational for us to finally sit down as a husband and wife team and given, just all the information that you gave us was so helpful. And Things like, I was like, yes, this is what I had thought with our first birth, like, whenever something didn't sit right with me, or I didn't feel right about something, I ignored it, and I was like, these guys are the experts.

And I don't know. This is my first time doing this. What do I know? And in hindsight, looking back at that, I realized that those times when things didn't sit right with me, I was correct. there were things that didn't sit right with me and. there was a reason and it was a valid reason and I just brushed it aside thinking I don't know what I'm talking about because this is my first time and like going through your class and being educated and being informed and finding out what the practices are like. I felt that it gave me the courage to fight and advocate for my own rights, and it gave me the courage to fight and advocate for myself, and I know, I know the word fight sounds very aggressive, but I had a hard time where the first time around I didn't fight for myself, and unfortunately it led to some not so great outcomes, and so I still get emotional when I talk about it, Learning to fight and advocate for myself has been such an important part of motherhood for me,

Lisa: Yeah.

Seanna: because there's been so many instances and even after the birth, not with my birth trauma, but with breastfeeding with Undiagnosed tongue and lip ties with even just with maternity leave in my place of work. There are many times where I had to learn how to really, fight and stand up for when something didn't seem right. And, it has really made a difference in the health and well being of my family.

And I know prior to having gone through the trauma, I would not have done that I would have just been like, what happened with me, whereas it didn't sit right with me, but clearly these people must be the experts. That's just the way it is because they're the doctors.

They're the ones that went to school for this. And so sitting through that class and hearing all these things and being like. Yes, or no, that shouldn't have happened, or just, it made me, it really empowered me, and that's what we wanted, and that's why we reached, we wanted to go to a class for the second time, and it's not just for labor positions, which, we wanted that too, because we knew nothing, My 1st birth, I think I photocopied the pages and what to expect when you're expecting that gives you a couple of labor positions and that's what we went to the hospital with and we never even got to use any of them because I was hooked up to an I. V. and they didn't have a birth ball. They didn't have, they had nothing. So this time around, just going in and feeling very well equipped, not just in the various positions, but, Feeling very well equipped with, knowing what my rights are and what the, you had mentioned, the evidence based.

What is evidence based reasoning? Is that what it's called?

Lisa: Evidence based birth is the organization

Seanna: Yeah. Or just what you had said like something as simple as telling women they're not allowed to drink water. Meanwhile, like you had mentioned, there are many studies that have shown that it's actually beneficial for women to drink water,

Lisa: Oh, yeah, the gap. Yeah, the evidence practice gap.

Seanna: There we go. Yes. That's what I'm meaning to say. And like that, yes, women should drink water because it makes sense because they're dehydrated. And then. I, both times it was an induction, and I was there 24, 26 hours, I don't think it's right for someone to be in labor for 26 hours, and you're telling you to suck on some ice chips, that does not work out well.

It gave me the courage to be like, the second time around, I was like, I'm definitely gonna drink water, they told me I couldn't eat and it was a 26 hour labor. I snuck a couple of bites here and there because there was a time where literally I was in labor and my stomach was growling and I was like, this is not okay.

Like it was early stages, but I was like, how am I going to get to like the pushing part if my stomach is growling and we're at like two centimeters or whatever it is like, taking the class really helped me. Know that when something didn't feel right, there was, like, science and studies and reasoning to back it up.

And to know that if I chose to take a risk, like a VBAC is a risk. Knowing the exact statistics for that. This is a small risk and I feel confident in this choice. Or, the chances of the only, the reason why they say don't eat food when you're in labor is if you have to go under general anesthesia and the chances of that are slim and that kind of stuff.

And I hope I'm saying the right things because I'm, this is what I remember, but. It was about a year ago. 

Lisa: It's all good. It's all good.

Okay. And I wanted to mention too that I, throughout having you in class, I was nervous just because, when I knew you had shared that you were. You had experienced PTSD with, you'd had birth trauma from the first time, and I was doing my very best as much as I possibly could to be sensitive to that, in the ways that I was wording things, but also knowing that there's only so much I can do on that.

And so I think I remember checking in with you after. 1 or 2 of the classes, just to say, Hey, I'm here. If you need to talk about anything, I hope nothing was overly triggering. But that was, yeah, I don't know if you have any reflections on that piece of it.

Seanna: You were very sensitive and it was really great. So I really appreciate that sensitivity. I felt like it was a safe place that I could share that and I felt safe sharing that with the other people in the class as well. I think I mentioned it to them just to be like, I don't want to scare anyone, but I also wanted them to know hey, this is a thing and it could happen and it's okay.

you'll be okay. but no, you were very sensitive and I do. There were definitely parts where it was emotional, but the nice thing was I was still in therapy reprocessing it. So I would just take what happened and I'd go to my session and we'd do some EMDR around it. And I was able to be like, Oh, like this is still really a trigger for me.

I need to work through this. So it isn't or that kind of thing. And yeah, no, the only thing, it was very interesting. The only thing that really got me was when it was, and it was, an oral, an audio cue. It was an audio cue and it was when you demonstrated the way they count or they cheer on for women to push.

Lisa: Pushing.

Seanna: Yes, and that was such a thing for me with my first because we were sitting in a dark room by ourselves for the 24 hours that we were waiting to get, I only got to 5 centimeters, but we kept on hearing. Cheers and shouts and directed pushing from all the rooms around us and the only thing that was getting me through like the contractions I think was just that I was like That's going to be me.

I'm going to get to that part. That's going to be me. It's going to be my turn when I get there. And then we never got there and I forgot about that until your class. And I was like, oh, wow. but it was good and then I went again, I went back and it also gave me the knowledge to, I had a conversation with it about my doctor.

And I said, I just was put in this situation and it was not good. And I would really appreciate it if that is not used when I am pushing, like, when we get to this. Hopefully we will. and he. Luckily, he said, oh, I don't really do that typically and he didn't like when we got to it. They were encouraging, but it wasn't that same like directed pushing.

He was a little bit calmer and, luckily, I had processed through it. So it didn't set me off as much.

Lisa: That's so great. Yeah, I do remember being very encouraged that you were still in therapy during the class so that you had that holding space, that safe space to process through any triggering things that were happening in class. So kudos to you. I just admire that so much because we need that.

And so many people. Just try to stuff it away. And that for our long-term, mental health isn't always helpful. if we are able to seek out that support, yeah. To the degree that's possible. So wise.

Seanna: Yes. And I definitely, I would recommend to anyone, To I recommend therapy like I literally I'd never done therapy prior to this but having that space on a continued basis also just through my pregnancy and through there were a lot of things that my second pregnancy brought up that I like hadn't realized were issues and just having that space to reprocess it really helps.

And I also made sure Early on, I was very afraid of being induced because I was a 2nd time around because I really felt like the induction is what led to the increased intervention, which ultimately led to the emergency C section with my 1st. I, yeah, I was so for a long time was, like, really resentful that I wasn't allowed to go to 42 weeks on my own with my 1st, because it's my 1st, you just, anyway, but.

I had to really, for a while, for a long time, the induction was what I was the most fearful of, not even having another C section. It was just like, if I had to go into foreign induction. And ultimately, with this one, I was induced again. It was done differently by the doctor. Dr. Granoff handled it very differently than my provider the first time around.

but. I had to, I processed that in therapy very, a lot, and we had supports in place, and I had, positive affirmations in place, and just, like, all of these things to really help make sure that even though it was something that was a very negative experience for me the first time around, if it had to happen again, which it did, so I'm glad I prepared for it, I had the supports in place so I felt confident going into it as opposed to being like, completely overwhelmed going and starting out labor in a very negative place.

 yeah, so that was good.

Lisa: Yeah. so that you were starting to mention the way Labor started, within induction. Do you wanna go ahead and start going into the details of that?

Seanna: Yes, I do want to if it's okay if I can mention a couple of things that I did prior.

Lisa: Of course. Please.

Seanna: Okay, I definitely with this time around, like I said, I wanted to do everything I could to prepare myself and my body for, Labor and just trying to actively get there. so at, 30 weeks, I think the baby flipped and the baby was breech and the baby stayed breech for a while at 32 weeks.

The doctor was like, oh, no, it's not a problem. don't worry. We'll talk to you about it when it's 36 weeks, but I think I had learned in your class, even and then also with the doulas, that, by 36 weeks, there's not a lot of room for baby to turn back. So I did do some of the spinning babies Stretches and exercises to hopefully get the baby to move in addition to going to see a Webster certified chiropractor. So Webster, for those that don't know, a Webster certified chiropractor is someone that can work with women that are pregnant and also very young infants. So if anyone has a tongue that's tied into tongue ties, I checked a lot of the boxes with my kids, but they both had tongue ties. but anyway, I started going to a Webster certified chiropractor at 33 weeks, and it made such a difference just in how I felt physically. I was going once a week from 33 weeks, pretty much all the way through to 40 weeks, and I did not have this the first time around, but my goodness, the difference it made and how I felt like if it had been like 5 or 6 days since I had been, I was just like achy and I had a 9 pound 11 ounce baby.

I had a very big baby. I was like, baby was big. But I was achy and sore and like all these pregnancy pains and I would go to the chiropractor and the next day I was like, I feel so good. The pains didn't happen. I could get up in the middle of the night and I wasn't like limping.

Like it was amazing. So I highly recommend it if you have the means, or even if it's yes, it was a little bit of a financial commitment for us, but it was so worth it because it just made me feel so much better in general, not even just like it. It also helps with flipping if a baby's in breech, but it really made a difference.

So that helped a lot. And then when we were at 39, 40 weeks, and it looked like an induction was, a baby didn't come on their own because I was not like, with, With both my children, I was also not only did I have to be induced, but I was like. Nothing. I was like zero effaced, high cervix, like no dilation, nothing.

Like zero, all zeros. Like my body was like, nope, we're closed. We do not want to start the process naturally. I also did some acupuncture as well. While it didn't help jumpstart labor, it did help me. relax a little bit more and feel a little bit better. so that was helpful as well.

Lisa: Great. And if you'd like to, after, afterwards, you could send me the names of who you saw and I can include those in the resources if you would like.

Seanna: Oh, yes, absolutely. I will definitely do that for sure.

Lisa: Thanks.

Seanna: So yes, now the labor side of things. So Dr. Granoff had a conversation with me fairly early on that he does encourage induction. And he doesn't like to let women go too long. And this was also something I had to process because I wasn't super like on board with it.

I was like, I want to wait to 42 weeks. But he mentioned that in his opinion, that typically the longer you waited, the older your placenta was, the less likely you were to have a successful VBAC because it wasn't as malleable. And we had checked this with the doulas and stuff, my husband and I, and, we ultimately decided, okay, we're going to schedule an induction at 41 weeks. This was like, we had the 40 week appointment and he was like, I would really like to schedule an induction for you.

And once again, I was zero zero zero, like my body wasn't showing any signs of anything on its own. And so I had to make the really tough decision that I had to trust him a little bit and that was hard. That was hard. After going through what I went through with my first, but trust him in a sense that he is the expert on this.

He is the 1 that everyone says to go to for this. And if this is his opinion that this will help us hopefully have a more increased chance at success. So we scheduled an induction. He delivers at Nassau University Medical Center, and they actually have some really great things in place there, which I was really happy for.

They do have a water birth in the hospital available, but unfortunately, if you've had a C section, you're not a candidate for that. But if anyone is looking for a hospital water birth, they do have that option. But I did really discuss with him a lot of stuff. I advocated for the wireless monitor.

They apparently had 1 afterwards, I found out the nurses were like, Oh, yeah, I think you're one of the first patients to use it. And I was like, no, I want that wireless monitor so I can move around and have that freedom of movement. they had the birth ball, they had a peanut, all that stuff.

I really wanted to make sure I was utilizing it. Yeah, I guess, we went into the hospital , I think it was like 9 o'clock. And then it took a while for them to just process us, and then at midnight they started with a Foley balloon, and because I had a C section, I couldn't use the Cytotec. Is that, is it Cytotec or Cervidil? I always get

Lisa: Probably Cytotec because there's more risk of uterine rupture. It's more powerful than Cervidil is.

Seanna: Okay, so they couldn't use the Cytotec, so they were just going to use the pitocin, but he started first with the Foley balloon, and that was in for a while, and they'd come back and check like every 4 hours, 

So when we got into the hospital, I really advocated heavily to just have the port, and then to be given the fluids and whatever else I needed. And then to be disconnected from it when I didn't need it and vice versa.

Unfortunately, I did have to get fluids right away. I also have to have antibiotics because I tested positive for group B strep. So I had antibiotics, but they were able to disconnect it once the antibiotic round was done until the next one was. So I was able to, because we went in at night, they started at midnight.

I was able to try and get a little bit of sleep where I wasn't hooked up. I just had the port and it wasn't hooked up to anything, which was good. So yeah, so we just had the foley balloon in and then they did, I think it was around like 10am foley balloon went in at midnight around 10am. I was like.

1 or 2 centimeters dilated and they started pitocin at that time. and then it was a lot of waiting. I didn't progress very quickly with it. They had to keep upping the dosage of the pitocin.

I definitely tried to move as much as possible. So I had my, this is, I had my little IV because I was on antibiotics. I have a little IV thing. And, because I had the wireless monitor, I just once an hour, go out of my room and walk up and down the halls and people would look at me a little strangely, but I just wanted to move.

I wanted to just get moving. yeah. And they actually had to, again, because I was one of the first few people that used the wireless monitor, they actually had to, tell me, oh, you're actually out of range when you reach this part of the hallway. Please stay on this part of the hallway.

So I learned, like, where I could walk. But it was encouraging for me just to leave my room and leave my bed and move a little bit. And the wireless monitor was amazing because the, the giant, the one without the wireless monitor was the strap, like my skin was so inflamed at that point.

It was so itchy and uncomfortable that I like, cause they started off with that before they found the wireless monitor. Like they had to find it. And I kept asking for it. I had to be like, do you have the wireless monitor? Dr. Granoff said that you would have this for me. I would like to use the wireless monitor.

And they're like, no, we'll get it for you. And I was like, no, but I would like to use this. And I even advocated for myself. I was so uncomfortable with the traditional monitor. I was like, look, I'm not on Pitocin right now. I know that I do not need to be monitored. So if you need to check in, that's fine.

But I do not want this on continually. and I knew because of our class that I could advocate for it. and I even at one point, unfortunately, had a nurse who gave me some kickback and I knew that I had to like, I, I had to stand firm in it and I was firm a little bit and then she eventually I wasn't rude, but I was firm and she was like, you need to keep this on for another hour.

And I said, no, I was told 30 minutes and it's been an hour. I'm not keeping it on for a 2nd hour. I'm not on medication. You like, you have a baseline. We are good. And she eventually took it off and I was able to sleep because of that. It was a huge difference for me as far as resting. but then the wireless monitor was lighter and smaller and you didn't have those giant awful elastic belly bands.

So I'm a huge proponent of asking your doctor if your hospital has a wireless monitor because it helped me a lot. I was very thankful for it.

Lisa: Love it. I'm such a fan of your pushing and advocating for yourself.

Seanna: Yes. And it had, and I like had asked beforehand. So I knew that it was there and like literally from what some of the nurses said, I think they had it and just no one asked for it and they didn't offer it, it seemed. So I really was, again, that advocacy for yourself, I think, is so important because it did, even though it's such a small thing, it made such a difference for me and my overall comfort for the amount of time that I had it on.

 And then I also found out, typically with inductions. They just last a long time, like you're there for a long time. So if you have a doula, your doula typically, at least with Bori and Jaye, they didn't necessarily come to the hospital right at the beginning because it was a long time, but they were available via text.

They had me update them like every hour or two. They knew I was in the hospital. I think once the morning kick started at around like 9 or 10 AM, I did like a video call with, with Jay and, they were able to ask me how I was doing and ask for some feedback, and I was able to ask questions of them.

And, it was overall really helpful to have that resource there because I was, my brain was transported back to, oh, my gosh, we're doing it by ourselves again. There's not someone physically present in the room, but even just having them there and knowing that, okay, they're there. Having them was such a huge help in making sure that my husband and I, we both felt comfortable and just okay in what we were doing. And we were able to use some of our techniques too that we learned in class. We're able to use early labor positions because I was only like 2 to 4 or so centimeters dilated for a long time.

I also had music, I had a playlist that I had pre done, and I was, jamming out to that a little bit, at one point, because it was very uneventful for a little while, there's just a lot of waiting for things to happen,

Lisa: And I'll just mention that is, it is pretty standard for at least in our collective. Most of the doulas and any doulas who are more experienced and who know that they want to have a sustainable profession, in an induction scenario. Usually their contract specifies that they don't come to join you in person until active labor until 6 around 6 centimeters.

And that's just because it can last days up to that point in many cases, and it's just not a sustainable career to be, nor are we really in many cases needed in that pre-labor part of the induction where there's no really contractions happening yet that is, Yeah, so I just wanted to point that out.

That's very common.

Seanna: Yes, and I think, for me, I just wanted the support for, the big decisions, but they were available via text or phone call or video chat, FaceTime, Anything that we needed, if the doctor was coming in and we had a decision to make, and you had said we could say, hey, can we have a minute?

And then I could, if I needed, call them and be like, this is what's being said. Is this okay? I don't think I had to utilize that, but knowing that I had that option was really great. So I appreciated that. and yeah, so that was, like, I used the moving ball. I was moving around with the wireless monitor, and things did start to happen.

I was having smaller, lighter contractions, and I was reading. I had a book. I had the TV on. I was like, okay, it's good. And then I think it was around 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon, we had started this process at midnight, that the doctor came in and they're like, okay, we haven't, we're not progressing as fast as we would like.

He didn't make me feel pressured. 

He very much so made me feel like I had a choice. I was a part of the decision making. I was a part of the process and that here is what I would recommend.

What would you like to do versus this is what you have to do. And that to me was a huge deal to be given the choice and a voice in my own birth process, which seems silly. But after going through what I went through the first time, that was so important to me. So we together made the decision to have the membranes ruptured at the time, and I think you had given us a heads up or someone had given us a heads up that like once that happens things start progressing along pretty quickly. and I was fine for maybe a half an hour, but an hour in the contractions were so strong because I was on like I was on a lot of Pitocin.

I think, I, I don't know if Bori and Jaye, I think Bori looked at it and she was like, you were on a very high dose of Pitocin at that point, so it also made me feel a lot better knowing, I learned in your class that when you're on Pitocin, you have stronger contractions that your body doesn't have the natural, essentially they're a lot stronger and more painful than it would be if you were in labor naturally.

So that also made me, It gave me the comfort to be like, okay, this feels unbearable, but it's okay because I am on Pitocin. And so I made at that point, I think it was like an hour in and I was just like, I just remember so vividly, holding onto my husband and just sobbing with every contraction.

I couldn't even like, and I was like, all right, we think this is time for the epidural. I really wanted to make it to 5 centimeters before we had the epidural because that was like the magic recommendation, try and make it to 5 or 6 centimeters before then. yeah. And so we made the decision, okay, this is at a point where it's not sustainable.

I cannot make it to 10 if this is 5 or 6. So we made the decision to have the epidural and that's when doula, Bori, I refer to them interchangeably because they were such a team. But that's when Bori came to the hospital. So yeah, we decided to get the epidural to help with the stronger contractions. That was probably actually the hardest part of my labor was getting the epidural. More so than any other part, which is a little insane. It took them six tries and an hour and a half.

Lisa: What? That's very unusual. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Seanna: So I was having these, really intense contractions that I couldn't, I don't know if I was, not speaking through them, but I was basically just, like, sobbing through them, and when you get the epidural, you have to stay, super still in a hunched over position, and I had to stay in that position essentially for, an hour and a half, from start to finish from when they started attempting to give me the epidural and when it was finally successful, it was, Yeah, it was a unique situation.

Lisa: So that was the one, really negative part of the birth. did you ever get a sense of why it took that long? It wasn't like a resident or intern, was it?

Seanna: I think it is a learning hospital. I believe the first person maybe was a resident, but after they tried three times, then they got a different anesthesiologist, who I'm assuming was, like, someone else who came in, but he also had to try multiple times. and that's, yeah, in hindsight. I don't , they just said that's the anesthesiologist.

They didn't say, this is a resident or this isn't. 

Lisa: I have had clients who are like with the epidural, we're not messing around with anybody so give me the top expert that you have here.

Seanna: Yes.

Lisa: Had a couple of people do that.

Seanna: That makes sense. With my first child, when I got the epidural with my first pregnancy, it was one shot and we were done in 20 minutes. So I was expecting, here we go, this is an epidural, it'll be great. And it was, it just was not. yeah. So they definitely like, they had to try a lot.

They kept on hitting, they kept on getting it in, but they had to, test it by pushing in the whatever, the, and if your blood pressure drops, then you can't, or if you got dizzy and they kept on testing it. And I kept on, almost passing out every time they tested it or Not passing out my heart rate would spike so they'd test it and all of a sudden you'd hear the monitors go like beep really far and they were like, Nope, this doesn't work. This isn't right. it got to the point that like my doctor came in and was like, Hi, how is it going?

What's going on? And I asked him, I was like, they've tried 5 times. What are my other options? And he was like, it's either nothing or general anesthesia. And my brain was like, I'm not going to be knocked out when my child is born. Like I want to be here. So I was just like, okay, I guess I have no choice.

We have to try again. And thank goodness that is when they got it. It was successful, but that was probably like the most frustrating part of the whole experience.

Lisa: Oh, I'm glad they finally got it

Seanna: Yes. Yeah. I'm glad it

Lisa: 11th hour.

Seanna: Yeah. Cause I also know, I think just with the strength of the contractions, I don't think I could have made it without that, if that makes sense.

Lisa: Could have become traumatic. Yeah.

Seanna: Yes, I don't know if I would have had the stamina to make it to 10 centimeters dilated.

So luckily, once the epidural hit, I relaxed a bit. I was able to calm down. This was like, let's see, they started at 7, they started, so 830 was when it finally was successful. and Bori had gotten there, but hadn't really been able to come in and really interact with me because it took, she got there right when they started the epidural process because we were trying to hold on, but we had to tell her, we just, we couldn't wait longer. So she was so lovely. They set the room up. They had candles in the room. They used some essential oils and they really helped me relax and I was able to get some sleep, which was wonderful. It was a little uncomfortable. She helped me move from side to side, but for the most part, 

Once I got the epidural, I was like, okay, I am much better than where I was throughout this or like leading into this lengthy process of it, which I know is unique too. I don't want anyone to think that's I don't think that's typical. Bori said that she had never seen that. And I'm pretty sure my doctor was also like, I have never seen this, this is a little ridiculous. Please, to whoever is listening, do not think that this is typical. This is just like the weird thing that happened to me in my story. And yeah, so I got to rest. I got to sleep a bit. I think. What was it like 2 a. m. came and he checked and I was further along.

I was at, I think, 8 centimeters, maybe 9. So I was progressing, which was wonderful. We had the peanut ball that we were using to help keep everything aligned. So I was really happy because I was like, okay, we're progressing. That's great. And then, at that point, I had the epidural for so long, they gave me another dose, and I was able to rest for a little bit, and then I started feeling this intense pain in my hip.

Couldn't feel anything, couldn't feel anything in my legs, but just felt something in my hip and it was getting to the point that I was, like, not able to really, talk to people and, Bori was amazing because she knew, right away. She was like, okay, gonna go, gonna get the doctor, this is, he needs to come in and check her.

My husband was, like, sleeping. I was partially asleep, but I was in a part where I did not know what was happening, and I did not have the words to articulate what was happening because it was a pain in my hip, and I was like, this is a weird place to be feeling, childbirth pain. But turns out I was definitely, I was ready.

Baby was in position. I was ready to push, which was wonderful. So Bori, again, like I said, was amazing and got the doctor to come in, doctor checked me and was like, Oh yes, you are ready to go. And to his credit, he waited until the baby was fully, essentially, almost all the way out by, not all the way out, but I don't know the specific.

Lisa: Probably the plus station. The lower, yeah, close to crowning,

Seanna: I think he basically waited until baby was like, plus 3 and to his credit, that is a really exciting thing because I know a lot of doctors don't necessarily do that. So he really wanted to wait for me to start pushing until baby was ready to go. And it worked out in my favor because the epidural took off enough of the pain that I was able to really pretty much relax most of the way.

And it was like early overnight into the morning. I got some rest as best as you can when you're, nine, eight, nine, 10 centimeters dilated. But I was able to relax a bit before the pushing. So yeah, so they like, got everything like they're like, okay, like now you're going to push. And I just remember having this sense of elation and I like turned to my husband.

I was just like, we made it to this part. This is what we've been working on for like months, like years is that we made it. I'm going to get to push. I was just like, I was so excited that I was going to get to push, which sounds really weird, but I was just really excited and okay, here it is, we're gonna do this.

And yeah, and then they had me, they did have me in the traditional pushing position, which felt a little strange to me. I know you had, and in the, the other things they had advocated for, You can advocate for different positions, even if you've had an epidural, it doesn't have to be on your back.

And my game plan was like, okay, I'm going to try this position that they're saying I need to be in. And then if it isn't working, then I'll start advocating along with our doula for everyone for a different position. But I didn't need to do that because it was pretty awesome. And I only had to push for nine minutes.

Lisa: Yeah. Yay. Yay.

Seanna: And then my son was born, which is like, I'm still in disbelief that I didn't have to push for that long. It was so fast. It was great. So I'm again, to his credit that he really waited until baby was all the way down, my doctor, that it was a very successful pushing experience.

And, Yeah. And then it was just like this super rush of Oh my gosh. Like the first thing, I got to hold my son. And the first thing I thought was just to him, we did it. We did this together, me and my son, we did this. We had a vaginal birth. We did it. And I just felt like this very much like I am woman in this moment.

Yes, I did it. I'm so excited. But just also just the joy that he was there with me and, I could feed him and, and I got to have, the golden hour. I got to have him on my chest immediately. With the C section, unfortunately, I didn't have that and I couldn't hold my child the way I wanted to.

And this time around, he was, like, immediately placed on my chest, my second child. And, I got to it. Just have that moment and have those moments. And that was just like such, uh, yeah, just even looking back at it now. I'm so like, I get very happy and excited thinking about that moment.

And it was just like such a culmination of everything, like this crazy journey to get here, but then we had finally done it. So it was just really exciting.

Lisa: Amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that. So great.

Seanna: Yeah. So it's definitely like, it can happen. I definitely feel like having a successful VBAC does take, I think, a little bit more proactive planning or just like very intentional additional supports. But I know a lot of women that are really like, discouraged by it and it can happen and it did work.

So it worked for me, which I'm really excited to say. and I hope that it can, I hope that other people can know that it can happen for them too. That's like coming on here. I just want to share my story so that, anyone else might know that it can happen. It's not a unicorn thing.

It's something that can happen and it, yeah. And it was a good thing for me. It worked out very positively for me.

Lisa: Beautiful. 

You mentioned you might want to share a little bit about your breastfeeding journey?

Seanna: Sure. Yes. I definitely had an interesting and a little bit of a challenging breastfeeding journey between my first and my second. So with my first, when he was born, we, Started breastfeeding and we were encouraged to, we ended up using formula very early on.

He was, my first, was a large child. He was 9 pounds, 4 ounces and just in my personal experience, I have found because both my children have been large that they needed a little extra than just the colostrum when they were first born. but we were encouraged to use formula in the hospital. 

And I did not know what I was doing because breastfeeding is a learned thing, not something that comes natural, but I feel like a lot of women don't share that it's, hey, it's learned. I thought oh, the baby will come out and we'd breastfeed and that's great. And that's like what breastfeeding is and oh, my gosh.

I was in for such a rude awakening. That is not what it is at all. It is such a journey and a work and just, oh, but a couple of key takeaways from that as I did see a lactation consultant in the hospital. With my first, they had lactation consultants there. I saw two different women.

One was extremely helpful and knowledgeable and it was great. The other person literally stood by the door and this wasn't COVID, but stood by the door and was like, okay, that looks fine. And I was like, okay, this kind of hurts. And she was like, oh, try this. But she wouldn't come near me.

She wouldn't touch me or reposition me or anything like that. So it's hit or miss depending on who's on duty in the hospital at that time. and that I did have breastfeeding was very painful for me the 1st time around. and I was having issues, it was painful enough that I was like, curling up my toes and crying essentially every time that my son was latching. And in hindsight I have since learned through the process of a lot of frustration that he had a tongue tie and tongue and lip ties are actually pretty common. And the little bit that I just want to share is that we had 2. No, 3, 3 lactation consultants and 2 pediatricians looked at my 1st child and said that he did not have a tongue tie and a lip tie and something about that didn't sit right with me. And again, that, what I talked about earlier in the podcast about these, feelings that I had that I ignored and I kept on pushing it aside and pushing it aside. And, it was not getting better. And I was like, I don't think I know nursing is hard, but I don't think it's supposed to be this hard.

I was having issues with, Just to talk about, cracked and bleeding nipples and stuff, and this all lasted until about six weeks, and then at about, five weeks, I was, like, ready to give up. I was, like, I can't function like this. This is not working. and fortunately, there was a group on Long Island called The Nesting Place, and it's this really wonderful place.

They have a lot of holistic options for women, all through and kids and the journeys, but they had a free virtual breastfeeding support group And that's what did it for me. I was like, okay, you know what? This is free. I'm just going to log on. I'm just going to see if this is normal.

I'm going to ask my questions. And the lactation consultant that was running it was so knowledgeable and so phenomenal. Within that first hour, like literally changed my breastfeeding journey and now into my second, she shared so much, she was so knowledgeable and she was just like, Oh, when I talked about tongue and lip ties, and she just asked all these things.

Is this happening? Is this happening? I was thinking, yes, check. Andshe was like, it sounds like he has a tongue and lip tie. So that free support group led to, I think that was a Monday. On Wednesday I had been in contact, it just resonated so much with what that lactation consultant was saying I hired her and she came to my house for a session on Wednesday.

She diagnosed him with a tongue and lip tie. And then on Thursday, I had, we had it revised. There is a phenomenal doctor, both in Manhattan and on Long Island. Dr. Scott Siegel. Yes. Yeah. He's like the tongue tie guru. 

Lisa: I was pretty sure that was where you were going.

Seanna: Yes. He is like the tongue tie guru. So if you do have tongue ties or anything like that, and you're in the New York area, he has an office in Manhattan and an office out on Long Island.

Phenomenal. So knowledgeable. He goes in, he does it. It's a laser. It's great. And so that made such a huge difference because then breastfeeding wasn't painful anymore. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is what it's supposed to be like, it's still hard, but it's bearable.

So that was really helpful. and then, unfortunately, I still had issues with supply. I worked with the lactation consultant and I was doing everything properly. but what I didn't realize and that no one had also told me or they don't make common knowledge is that Some women have medical, underlying medical reasons why they cannot produce enough breast milk for their children.

And I thought the baby's born, and if you choose to breastfeed, you just make enough milk for your child. This is how breastfeeding works. And unfortunately, that's also not the case, knowing this now. I even went to my OB, and I was like, look, I'm not, I am not producing enough.

And my child isn't getting enough food, like we had waking issues at 1 point with my 1st, he was designated as failure to thrive. It was a whole thing. and they were just like, oh, that's unfortunate. I'm sorry. It happens. End of story, they weren't going to help me with anything. They weren't going to help me work through it.

Have you seen a lactation consultant? Yes. so that was like. That was really hard for me to be like, wait a minute, I want to advocate to make enough food for my child. And I'm basically being told that I can't or just like too bad. It happens, deal with it. So that didn't sit well with me.

And again, like those things that don't sit well. So I worked with a lactation consultant and. There are support groups also on Facebook. There's a, it's now a foundation, it's a nonprofit, Low Milk Supply Foundation that can help. But they have resources as well. And there's some blood work that you can get done to see if you have an underlying thyroid condition or diabetes, insulin resistance or anything like that.

Those are some things that might cause stuff like that. or you could have something called IGT, which is insufficient glandular tissue and IGT is a diagnosis of exclusion. It means that you've had the blood work done and you don't have any of the markers for any of the other underlying health issues.

So it just seems that your body didn't make enough tissue for that. So I, and it was a long process for that. It was like. I'd say 5 months, 4 or 5 months between, me trying to get blood work done and get answers and all this stuff. So it was a lot, but ultimately for us, it was determined that it was insufficient glandular tissue or I. G. T. so that was also really hard just coming to the realization because most breastfeeding support groups or anything that you find, it's always If you do X, Y, and Z, you can increase your supply. If you buy this thing, you can increase your supply. If you take this supplement, if you pump more, if you triple pump, if you power pump, and that's like a hard message for a mom, that's like really struggling with doing it to be like, to think like I'm not good enough, I'm not making enough for my child.

So going through all that and realizing, okay, it's IGT. And I can't make enough. It was like a big realization for me, but also a little bit of freedom. Like I tried my hardest. I did everything right. And it just didn't work out to be fully, to give everything with breast milk 100%. But we had a really successful journey.

I did combo feeding. we combined breast milk and formula from, I think he was like, I mentioned briefly, like 2 or 3 days old. And it was a successful journey, and that was great. And at the end, we lasted a year, and I was really happy about that. And then I also learned through the various educational outlets I took that you can, with each pregnancy, you grow, your body grows more, of the breast tissue that produces breast milk.

So your chances of potentially having enough breast milk. Increase. so the nice thing is that this time around with my second, I don't have enough to be 100%, but my supply is definitely a lot better. We also had a tongue and lip tie, but we got it diagnosed at 5 days instead of at 6 weeks.

So we were able to get it revised very quickly and let my body, establish a good supply, and just Have that and then I also was okay because I started my journey knowing that I couldn't make a hundred percent So instead of me trying to like and it like takes a toll on your mental health So instead of me trying to am I doing this?

Am I doing that? Am I making enough? I'm not making enough like instead of me worrying about that I went into this breastfeeding journey with my second going. I know that I won't make a hundred percent and that's okay I'm gonna make what I can and that was like so freeing to

Lisa: Freeing, yeah, that was the word that came to my mind.

Seanna: And it made it possible for me to have a positive breastfeeding experience.

I feel like the message is it's all or nothing. It is you either breastfeed or you formula feed. And there's just knowing that there's a possibility of combo feeding and that it can be very successful. And then you get the benefits of both. Is. A message I wish was shared more often with first time parents, just in general, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

You can do both and it can be successful and, you can do what you need to do because, for a while there, it was significantly impacting my mental health, significantly with my first and this time around, not as much, which is great. So it's a much more healthy balance. yeah, I just wanted to share a little bit about that.

It also helped. That I, I believe the VBAC also having that golden hour, which establishes a really good breastfeeding rapport, golden hour, like having the baby on your chest for, initially when the baby is born, made a big difference as well, but 

Once again, I had to learn that you shouldn't push aside something that doesn't sit right with you because I had 4 or 5 people say, no, he's fine. He's fine with my son. And I finally advocated for that. And the result was a game changer for my family. So yeah, just encouraging anyone listening to this is that if there is something that doesn't sit right with you, Let that mama bear instinct kick in because, at least in my regard, most of the time that's happened, there was a valid reason for me feeling the way I was feeling.

Lisa: I love that. That's a beautiful piece of wisdom to leave with people and I am so glad we almost didn't have the chat about breastfeeding, just for the sake of time and I'm really glad that we did because that is, yeah, what you shared is really powerful and really important for people to hear. So thank you for sharing that as well.

This has been so wonderful. 

I love that you, it seems like you really found your voice across this journey, or these journeys. It's all one big journey, but

Seanna: Yeah. I think I'm definitely a different person than I was when I started. And I wasn't a quiet person. I'm like a very outgoing person, but I've definitely found my voice and just definitely am different for it. But I think it's a positive change. I think.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Seanna. 

Seanna: Yes. Thank you so much. This has been like a really great experience. 

Thank you for letting me have this opportunity. It's a really wonderful way to like. Solidify, this is something that is really positive and we did it and happened and I'm really grateful for that. So thank you so much. And thank you just for all that you do because, I'm not even in the New York City sphere. I'm in Nassau County, but having that and just like that knowledge and wisdom from you, really made such a difference in our journey. So I really, I genuinely really appreciate that. So thank you.